Subscriber Content Preview

Stroud , who was head coach for eight seasons. The Tigers went on to win their 3rd National Championship that year while wearing the gold jerseys in the championship game. Later, as an athletic department administrator, he became the school's athletic director in Ozzie gets in because the idea was if you don't have the greatest defensive SS of all time, what is the point of defense in the game?

Standings Up to and Including this Date

Scores — Apr 2, 2018

Honestly, have you seen how dWAR is calculated? I am not confident at all about that. Its like fWAR for pitchers. It predicts what should have been not what it was. And sometimes, some players ,constantly defy what it should have been. Baseball reference uses DRS, that's hardly a predictive stat. Why do you consider those predictive? It doesnt care about a great leap that didnt manage to get an out but stopped the play from being an xbh. Dont get me wrong, it would be nigh impossible to build a system that takes into account all of this stuff, they are a good way to make a ballpark estimate.

But they are not perfect. Lets not even mention this are used as above average statistics instead of above replacement which kinda screws all defensive players. Also, dWAR likes him plenty - he rates as a very, very, good defensive shortstop. If you simply mean that it ranks him below Ozzie, that's hardly a criticism. Or, it's possible that you think your eye test is superior to the numbers. But imagine trying to rank a player's offensive output with regard only to the eye test, and without reference to triple slash numbers or raw hit totals - absurd, right?

No one is arguing for Ruben Sierra to join the HoF. Not saying we should put people on the HoF just because they played a lot, but longevity and consistency should be a thing. Sure, nowadays JAWS and some writers value Peak over consistency and longevity but it should still be a thing. Especially in cases as extreme as Vizquel in which he holds the record for most games in his position.

I mean, the whole batting aspect is far easier to "WARize" than defense. Like, you want to calculate someone's oWAR and you have to make no assumptions and you have all the data you need. Thats not the case for dWAR. No doube Vizquel wasnt a better shortstop than Ozzie, but Ozzie aint the bar to pass, Ozzie is the roof. The bar is Aparicio, and I think Vizquel does surpass it.

Bill James makes the point in his HOF book that if you're using the worst players in the HOF as your bar to entry, you don't have a good case. Aparicio is a dubious HOF candidate, but even so he's much more deserving than Vizquel. Only knew him by reputation until he came over. I always felt like he was trolling hitters by knowing exactly how hard to throw to barely get them out lol. This is easily refuted when you look at how many MVP ballots Vizquel was on during his playing career.

What's happening is people who didn't watch him play are now watching his highlight packages and trying to fill out a ballot that doesn't include Bonds and Clemens. No one who is legally sane would argue that 4 years of Lindor are better than 18 years of Ozzie smith. Those who saw him played knows what he was worth.

Thats how he managed to keep playing major league baseball until he was I mean, if you wanna turn in a blank ballot you are free to go ahead and do so. Over the last four years, public ballots have generally come in around 8 votes per-ballot and non-public ballots have come in around 7 votes per-ballot. Vizquel voters are no different, coming in at 8.

Well, 11 Gold Gloves in the most important defensive position of the game should be a sign of appreciation by writers. And that older writers who also were more likely to see Vizquel's full carrer tend to be more anti-ped and value more defense is not my fault.

I know it sounds weird but there's a legitimate case against Bonds. I dont like it but thats the way it is. The case against Omar is that he played with so many other good players?

If thats the case, why are all those Yankees in the HOF? It's because he was usually one of the better defensive SS, but he wasn't historically great, and there's a case to be made that many of his contemporaries were as good or better. And he was a markedly below average offensive player. A player that did not do PEDs is a markedly below average offensive player when compared to a subset of players in which a majority did use PEDs.

Even is Vizquel had the same offense relative to Ozzie Smith, there is a massive difference in defense. Vizquel's offense isn't keeping him out of the hall of fame the same way Ozzie's offense was enough to get in. Ozzie is carried by being almost certainly the greatest defensive SS of all time.

Ozzie gets in because the idea was if you don't have the greatest defensive SS of all time, what is the point of defense in the game? He's the bar, and you have to make a good case to clear that bar if you want to get in using that as the argument. Omar Vizquel is not even close to Ozzie Smith in defense. That isn't the only way into the hall, but it is really his only chance.

He's doesn't have an offensive track record to boost his case. Relative to the league he was worse than Ozzie, but in a raw value he was about the same. Well since offense is not an issue in Ozzie's case, then you need to be better than him to get a push in that category. Being as good as a guy offensively when everyone says "yea he sucked as a hitter but goddamned he was good with his glove" is not a way to make it into the hall if you weren't as good with the glove. The issue is if you want to get in the hall through the Ozzie method, you have to make a case to be the fucking best.

Omar is not the fucking best. If thats the bar the HoF would be a friggin ghost town. The bar if anything would be a guy like Aparicio. I mean, Vizquel's longevity alone should put his name on contention for HoF I mean, most games as a SS, 14 in AB, etc , add that being a top 3 5 if being strict defensive SS, should be enough to get him in. You're conceding too much. By batting runs Vizquel was twice as worse as Ozzie.

And you also have to account for baserunning - where Ozzie was exceptional and Vizquel was mediocre. Vizquel wasn't as much worse of a hitter than ozzie to eliminate him. The issue is entirely defense. Omar isn't even close to that. Simmons might be the only player who could come close if he keeps this up for another decade. That's how absurd ozzie was.

He was the best defensive player in the league for over a decade. Yes, but you are quite mistakenly attributing the high offensive run era of the mid 90s and early aughts to PEDs, when it is almost certainly a product of 2 separate rounds of expansion, new hitter-friendly ballparks, and - probably most crucially - a postage stamp sized strike zone.

Vizquel isn't "punished" by normalizing OPS to league environment if the high offensive era was, in fact, due to expansion, ballparks, and the strike zone. First of all, you don't get to throw a "majority" of players under the bus about PED use without evidence, without evidence that Vizquel wasn't also part of that majority. And even assuming that Vizquel wasn't using, the factors that caused the offensive explosion of the mid to late 90s - expansion, hitter-friendly parks, and especially a tiny strike zone - were factors that would have benefited him as much as anyone else.

As for offense, you're completely missing the point that they played in different offensive eras. On top of that, Ozzie was an exceptional baserunner and Vizquel was a mediocre one by baseruns. Ozzie was a better defender.

Ozzie is the roof not the bar. He got in with If he is the bar the HoF would be practically empty. AYL Season Schedule: AYL Tournament Announcements. Colorado Baseball Coaches Assocation. The Colorado Baseball Coaches Association was formed in as a community of individuals of all ages who are here to promote the sport of baseball in the state of Colorado.

All levels of competition including recreation, competitive, league, tournaments, high school and college baseball are part of the association. Highlights of the site are: Click here to visit their site! AYL concussion for training for all coaches! We have made changes to our Privacy Policy. By using this site you agree to the Privacy Policy and Terms of Service.

My my My my. Today's Game Field Status.